An Angry Christian

During a discussion on the Old Testament, a Born Again Christian loses the plot...

Discussion	Commentary
Re: Is Christianity's biggest obstacle the Old Testament? Posted by A Pantheist  on 3 Mar 2014 at 4:52AM I was talking about Yahweh, not God. I don't believe them to be the same god at all. The other names God supposedly used were probably also other gods.  Observing the differences between Christianity and Islam, who supposedly follow the same God, made me realise the flaws in Christian scripture. Have you ever read any scripture from other religions? I doubt that too, so it would be hard to compare them to Christianity then.	A pantheist points out the flaws in Christian Scripture when compared to interpretations from the other Abrahamic religions.
Re: Is Christianity's biggest obstacle the Old Testament? Posted by A Born Again Christian on 4 Mar 2014 at 10:57PM I have read enough to understand and support my argument. What I did read and did remember is that your great peace-loving religion believes it is fine to kill infidels, that is all persons of the Islam faith who convert to Christianity. It is a specific verse. I don't have a copy of your Quran (spelling?) so I can't give a complete citation, but the material is divided into basically three parts. This verse is in the third part. Perhaps there are "flaws in" Islam scripture?	The response from a born again Christian begins with a straw man by stating – “your great peace-loving religion” ... (The pantheist did not suggest that Islam was his religion)  ...and the Christian then goes on to refute the peace loving claim of Islam – which was never part of the discussion.  There is also a factual error regarding "infidels"
Re: Is Christianity’s biggest obstacle the Old Testament? Posted by JimC  on 4 Mar 2014 at 11:17PM I think the word you were looking for was "apostate" rather than infidel.  "Infidel" is not an Islamic word. It is the root of the word "infidelity" from the Latin infidelis, which literally means "not faithful". Historically the word was used by Christians to describe those who were enemies of Christianity, or people with no religious belief, atheists, people who were not baptised, etc. Christian and Islamic armies have killed countless infidels between them.  Regarding apostasy, there is a strong Muslim tradition of executing apostates, but I'm not sure if the Quran literally says they should be executed.	An explanation of the difference between apostates and infidels.
Re: Is Christianity’s biggest obstacle the Old Testament? Posted by A Born Again Christian on 5 Mar 2014 at 4:13PM No, I am pleased to use the word "infidel" most often used in modern times by Islams justifying killing innocents, "which literally means 'not fathful'."--quote from your post.  Apostate is the word I hear most often regarding churches claiming the label Christian, but built upon a man generated Theology that is inconsistent with Biblical teaching, historical beliefs derived from the Bible, and rational thought.  You are quick to print things like "Christian and Islamic armies" killing infidels. I have hope that no one is stupid enough to believe everything you write. In the U.S. we do not have what could honestly be called Christian armies.  Our soldiers, sailors, airmen, etc. are of every belief, including atheists and pantheists, etc. If you want to count the "countless" killed by atheist regimes we would see that such regimes are "outstanding" in the killing of multible millions of innocent citizens.	The first two paragraphs simply repeat the misunderstanding that infidel and apostate have different meanings. The final two paragraphs are a straw man argument. They refute a proposition which was never made, regarding the religious beliefs of the modern-day US armed forces.
Re: Is Christianity’s biggest obstacle the Old Testament? Posted by JimC  on 5 Mar 2014 at 4:41PM I also like the word infidel and I'm happy to be labelled as an infidel - it's more appropriate than atheist in my opinion.  My point was that you applied the word "infidel" to the meaning of "apostate" whilst referring to the Quranic verses regarding apostasy.  Apostate and infidel are different words with different meanings. So for example, I am an infidel according to both Islam and Christianity, but I am not an apostate. 500 years ago my life would have been threatened by both Christian and Muslim regimes. Since Christianity was tamed by democracy, the threat to my life from Christians today is much less. Perhaps in 500 years from now Islamic regimes will be similarly tamed.  As for the killing of infidels, I was referring to the past 2000 years of history, when countries (and their armies) were ruled by Christian or Islamic regimes - I was not referring to the modern-day US armed forces, or indeed any secular democracy.  A catalogue of infidel populations wiped out by Christian regimes and their armies is provided here... http://tinyurl.com/RGFSMCL-006
	Further explanation of the difference between the words apostate and infidel.  Further explanation of how Christian and Islamic armies have killed infidels.
Re: Is Christianity’s biggest obstacle the Old Testament? Posted by A Born Again Christian on 5 Mar 2014 at 4:57PM I didn't call you an infidel or an apostate--my posts are not always about you. Of course, you can call yourself anything you. --That's what I do, but I won't mention what I call you-- You have no link to atheist regimes killing populations in numbers that are insane? Oh no, silly me. That's using insanity as an excuse for the murdering atheists. Oh, perhaps your link is only concerned about ancient history...! Anyway, I should never expect your posts to maintain a fair and balanced approach.	Begins with a mild ad hominem... "I won't mention what I call you" !
Re: Is Christianity’s biggest obstacle the Old Testament? Posted by JimC  on 5 Mar 2014 at 5:12PM I didn't say that you called me anything. I was just using myself as an example to help you understand the difference between infidel and apostate. To repeat: I'm an infidel - not an apostate.  It's interesting that you won't mention what you call me. I'd like to know - I think it would be revealing! (If it's too obscene or cruel to put here you can PM me.)  Links to atheist dictators have been provided here many, many times. And as I always say, one should not blame religion (or a lack of it) for such mass killings. We should blame the dictators, be they Christian, Muslim, atheist or whatever. I only provided the list of Christian sponsored atrocities because you thought I was referring to the modern-day US Army when in fact I was referring to historical events, and you seemed unaware of the historical facts. So hopefully your knowledge is now a bit more balanced.	Further explanation of the difference between apostate and infidel. A request to know the meaning of "I won't mention what I call you" remark. Explanation that lists of killings by Christian or Islamic or Atheist regimes is pointless - the blame should lie with the dictators, monarchs, popes, emperors or other unelected leaders who were responsible. Religion - or lack of - is not to blame.
Re: Is Christianity’s biggest obstacle the Old Testament? Posted by A Born Again Christian on 8 Mar 2014 at 5:11PM I'm afraid long hours of many days go by and I don't even think about you. I have not called you anything obscene nor any other unpleasant name as I recall.    I should tell you, however, that in my real life job one of my support team turned in work that was shallow in argument, poorly researched, cleverly worded to grossly distort the opponent's position, was obnoxious and he otherwise refused to acknowledge he was pushing a losing argument, and I just... spontaniously ... with no malice aforethought... oh, I'm afraid I called him...JimC.  As I hope you can see in the above paragraph, I am prone to use humor--or make an effort to be humorous. Sadly, some people may conclude the above paragraph reflects hatred and is a venomous insult toward you, devoid of any humor. (Hmm, it would be a reasonable conclusion) Actually--I hope not to embarrass you, deminish your reputation nor subject you to ridicule by your friends, if you have any--but I have found you to make an expression of fairness to me. On your behalf I will stress that it was only once and happened... maybe four, five, six years ago. It was probably made in a weak moment due to your youth. I think at the worst you would shake your head and mumble for about a half second. At best, I could expect you might actually chuckle before drafting your vile, poison pen response to me.	The first paragraph seems to indicate a loss of memory of the "I won't mention what I call you" remark. The second paragraph is just pure ad hominem, although there is an attempt to make it funny, which doesn't really work.   (It is perhaps unintentionally funny, because of the idea that a support team member is having his or her work checked by someone who can't spell "spontaneously" "diminish".) The final paragraph is more ad hominem, plus needling, perhaps trying to get an angry reaction in return.  If so, it didn't work!