During a discussion on moral relativism, mischievous Evangelical Christians imply that atheists and psychopaths share the same morality. They also reveal a surprising level of ignorance about mental illness...
Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticise Hitler
Posted by Evangelical Christian on 19 Jul 2013 at 2:28AM
Moral relativism is a perspective that best serves sociopaths. That could mean that atheists and sociopaths have something in common. We'll ask Jim to explore that possibility!
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by JimC on 19 Jul 2013 at 8:30AM
Coincidentally, the correlation between religious belief and mental illness is an area of research of one of the psychiatrists I work with.
"Sociopath" is a term found in the media a lot, but the psychiatrists I work prefer a classification of Antisocial Personality Disorders (ASPD). Patients with severest forms of ASPD are classified (where I work) as psychopaths (rather than sociopaths). There is an argument that strict religious upbringing is a component of emotional disorders and other problems that develop in later life.
Apart from psychopathy (but related) are delusions - these are a common symptom of paranoia and schizophrenia. They are firmly held beliefs despite the obvious (to other people) absurdity of the beliefs and a lack of evidence to support the belief. I was with a patient only yesterday in one of our medium secure units. During his lucid moments, he understands that he is deluded and recognises the delusions as delusions, but still remains deluded!
On the other hand, spirituality (including religious beliefs) can also assist the recovery of patients with mental illness, if it is managed carefully.
I have access to a wealth of research material and it is a major interest of mine. I can provide a lot more information if you're really interested.
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Relativism entails that we have no way to criticise Hitler
Posted by Evangelical Christian on 22 Jul 2013 at 12:49AM
Ignoring your off topic response and any and all claims on your part contained therein, what does any of that have to do with the fact that there are those individuals--perhaps as a result of natural genetic selection, ironically--who benefit and prosper from the fact that they have no disposition whatsoever to respond to anyone's interests but their own, no matter the pain and suffering of others? So back to my original point: does not moral relativism best serve the interests of such individuals?
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by JimC on 22 Jul 2013 at 7:56AM
You claim that my response was off topic. Let's have a quick recap
Evangelical Christian says... Moral relativism is a perspective that best serves sociopaths. That could mean that atheists and sociopaths have something in common. We'll ask Jim to explore that possibility!
That's why I provided you with the explanation of sociopath, psychopathy, ASPD and so on. So if you think that's off topic - don't blame me - blame the evangelical Christians who introduced sociopathy and atheism into the debate and asked me to explore it!
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Relativism entails that we have no way to criticise Hitler
Posted by Evangelical Christian on 25 Jul 2013 at 1:42AM
Your response was off topic. You weren't asked to provide a scientific analysis of mental health, religion, and the like from your perspective--you were asked whether the perspective of moral relativism best serves the interests of sociopaths. You are still dodging that question. Care to try again?
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by JimC on 25 Jul 2013 at 7:51AM
You asked me to explore the possibility that "atheists and sociopaths have something in common". You said "we'll ask Jim to explore that possibility!" so I did. I provided an overview of as much of the research as I could find. And the answer appears to be "no".
If you're asking me "does the perspective of moral relativism best serve the interests of sociopaths" I have to restate the question because of the word "sociopath". So the question is...
"does the perspective of moral relativism best serve the interests of people suffering from personality disorders" again the answer is "no". Those people have a mental illness. Their interests are not best served by moral relativism. Their antisocial behaviour is beyond their control.
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by Evangelical Christian on 27 Jul 2013 at 3:20AM
Well I did invite your response, but that in no way means that I endorse such. You failed to respond to the original accusation, no matter how you seek to ignore such. Let's try this again: what do atheists and sociopaths have in common? Is it not a fixed HMFR that might influence their actions and choices? Please respond to such honestly and the origins and ramifications of such--thanks!
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by Jools on 27 Jul 2013 at 11:00AM
Atheists and sociopaths have absolutely nothing in common, stop trying to insinuate that athiest are sociopaths, I find your attitude very patronising and extremely insulting, as I'm sure many others here do.
Some of the most extreme sociopaths claim God told them to do the things they did, so maybe you'd like to explain that
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by JimC on 27 Jul 2013 at 5:01PM
There is a correlation between mental illness and religious belief but as already mentioned, this does not imply causation. I've yet to meet a patient in the hospitals where I work who is an atheist - but I'm sure they exist. And as you've mentioned, some of the most extreme cases are overtly religious.
And again as already mentioned, the only thing atheists and sociopaths have in common is that they are human beings, with human minds.
The fact is that people do bad things regardless of their religious belief, and people do good things regardless of their religious belief. The common factor is not a supernatural HMFR, but the human mind.
I wouldn't be too harsh on the attitude expressed by Evangelical Christian because I don't think it was him who changed the topic to mental illness and atheism and I think he was just swept along in the slipstream. And I would also stress that not all Christians share the attitude toward mental illness expressed by just one or two people here. I could write a lot about the terrific chaplaincy team where I work. But it's probably Off Topic. Maybe a new thread one day.
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by JimC on 27 Jul 2013 at 5:51PM
You ask "what do atheists and sociopaths have in common?". The only thing they have in common is their human minds, which is what we all have in common. The people with personality disorders are displaying a neurological or psychological problem, which can often be treated.
You then state as if it is a fact "both sociopaths and atheists lack a HMFR to justify their "moral" choices and actions". This is factually incorrect. Your HMFR is the Bible, and people suffering from personality disorders are just as likely to subscribe to the Bible as you are. Atheists lack a bible, but they don't lack a moral frame of reference. And neither do you. Therefore the common factor isn't the Bible - it's our human minds.
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by Evangelical Christian on 29 Jul 2013 at 2:48AM
I would suggest that what they have in common is the lack of any common basis to appeal to in advocating any sort of morality--or not.
The issue wasn't about personality disorders or their treatment nor about the delusions of certain individuals. The issue addressed the basis for advocating any moral position on the part of those who lack a HMFR. Sociopaths and atheists both share a lack of a HMFR as a basis for advocating their moral position, or lack thereof. Who's "right" from your perspective, and what is the basis for your judgement, expressed in terms that all might accept?
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by JimC on 29 Jul 2013 at 9:19AM
The issue is about personality disorders because you've introduced the concept of sociopaths into the discussion. A sociopath is someone who suffers from any one of a number of personality disorders.
So, you're saying that people who suffer from personality disorders lack an HMFR when in fact they believe in the same God and the same Scripture as you do.
Your lack of empathy for people with mental illness is quite astonishing. And your equating of people with mental illness to atheists is probably quite insulting to atheists, but in your defence I suggest it's based on ignorance rather than malice. It's certainly not a view shared with all Christians, as confirmed by the Chaplaincy team I work with (although I admit they are trained in psychology.)
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by Evangelical Christian on 31 Jul 2013 at 3:08AM
See how far off target you get--complete with wild accusations and straw man arguments--when you don't quote that which you are supposed to be responding to? Let me repeat my points above--exactly as they were originally written--and let's see if you can stay on topic:
I would suggest that what they have in common is the lack of any common basis to appeal to in advocating any sort of morality--or not.
The issue wasn't about personality disorders or their treatment nor about the delusions of certain individuals. The issue addressed the basis for advocating any moral position on the part of those who lack a HMFR. Sociopaths and atheists both share a lack of a HMFR as a basis for advocating their moral position, or lack thereof. Who's "right" from your perspective, and what is the basis for your judgement, expressed in terms that all might accept?
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by JimC on 31 Jul 2013 at 8:40AM
Bear in mind that the issue of people with personality disorders was not introduced into the discussion by me. So if you think it's "off target" it's not my fault. If I hadn't responded to it presumably you'd berate me for ignoring it. Now I'm being berated for not ignoring it!!
And again you assert that people with personality disorders lack a HMFR. Again - factually incorrect, and a cruel thing for you to say. If those people are from a Christian culture they are likely to be as Christian as you are. If they are from a Muslim culture they are likely to be Muslim and so on.
Perhaps you don't realise that you are insulting people just because they suffer from mental illness. Please try and realise what you are saying. I don't mind you making assertions that your morality is somehow superior to mine, but to attack Christians who suffer from personality disorders shows an incredible lack of empathy in my opinion. Are you being guided by the Bible in your opinion of these people? If so, it proves why it's useless as a HMFR.
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by Evangelical Christian on 5 Aug 2013 at 1:09AM
No, I brought up sociopaths and you redefined the term as those seeking mental treatment and accused me of being insensitive to them, etc. A sociopath need not be delusional and a considerable number of them lead quite successful lives--they seem to be quite well represented among multinational corporate executives, for example, and any number of occupations for which a conscience might seem a hindrance in their pursuits and goals. Nice misdirect though.
Back to the point, what (non delusional) sociopaths and atheists have in common is a lack of a HMFR and the ramifications of holding that perspective--pure and simple, and my point all along.
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by JimC on 5 Aug 2013 at 11:32AM
I did not say that a sociopath "was someone seeking mental treatment" so that's a straw man argument.
"Sociopath" is a catch-all word to describe a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behaviour. I work with such people every day. Most are religious (mainly Christian in my hospitals). They share the same so-called HMFR as you. One in particular seems to have memorised the entire Bible. A wide range of treatments are available for the range of conditions you classify as "sociopath" - there's a lot of information on the Internet. I will send you more information by PM.
Obviously I can't make you empathise or sympathise with people who are mentally ill, but I hope you can at least understand them a bit. Perhaps there's a message from Jesus that you could draw upon to help you understand mental illness. I've seen our Chaplaincy team in action supporting the Christians that you refer to as "sociopaths" so I like to think your attitude towards what you call "sociopaths" is a minority view among Christians.
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by Evangelical Christian on 7 Aug 2013 at 1:20AM
Regarding sociopaths--again, you are misdirecting and creating "straw man" arguments. I am NOT attacking the mentally ill, as you would have us believe, nor does anything I mentioned on the subject have anything to do with attacking those undergoing treatment (=straw man argument on your part)--and since you ignored my point I'll state it again: when I refer to "sociopaths" I am referring to those who lack conscience--pure and simple. I mentioned corporate executives. I might have mentioned mercenaries of all sorts--at least those who do so from a non-moral (hence, sociopathic) perspective. These individuals are in many ways quite "successful" as some might evaluate "success." They are certainly paragons of "moral relativism" in the sense that they evaluate all moral decisions as to what's in it for them. Contrary to your claims, I don't believe you will find many "religious" people among them.
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by JimC on 7 Aug 2013 at 10:02AM
The lack of a conscience is a major symptom of psychopathy and personality disorders (which you like to refer to as sociopathy). People with this illness who were raised in a Christian culture are likely to be Christian and believe in the same God and Bible that you do. In other words they have the same so-called HMFR that you do. Likewise other cultures - mental illness is not limited to Christian cultures obviously.
As you say, it is possible to lead a successful life with this mental illness - as with any illness or disability. The most rewarding part of where I work is to see people leave to lead a life outside. And as you say, not everyone with a mental illness needs or seeks treatment. That's the cruel aspect of mental illness - you often don't know you have it because it's your mind that's affected.
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by Evangelical Christian on 9 Aug 2013 at 1:08AM
You keep making this an issue about mental illness, even going so far as to group non-delusional people into that category. I'm very happy that you have been able to work with certain individuals to improve their lives and their impact on the community, but that is still a complete misdirect away from the issue, unless you would categorize all people who don't care how their actions affect others into a "mental illness" category. That would be a broad application of the term indeed, and the courts would disagree! Ultimately all must be held accountable for their actions without an appeal to "mental illness" when that is not the case. The point was--and is--that such individuals who don't care how their actions affect others are in the same category as all who lack a HMFR. From a relativist perspective, their lack of empathy is just as valid a "moral" perspective as one who might choose to live an exemplary life.
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Re: Relativism entails that we have no way to criticize Hitler
Posted by JimC on 9 Aug 2013 at 12:46PM
Actually it was you who introduced mental illness into the topic (sociopathy as you call it). And it's you who continue to make it an issue by now introducing the main symptom of psychopathy (a lack of conscience).
Your statement that people who don't care about their actions "are in the same category" as people who are not religious, is factually incorrect and unsupported by evidence. It is clearly your opinion. But it's wrong.
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