Another Angry Christian

A discussion on "strange religions" explores various ideas in a polite, respectful, good humoured way.  Then an Evangelical Christian intervenes (about halfway down) and the topic bites the dust...

Strange religions?

Posted by An atheist on 24 Mar 2014 at 12:41AM

http://www.nuwaubianfacts.com/

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 24 Mar 2014 at 3:01PM

Wow. I know something of Nubia but this Nuwaubian religion was new to me. Fascinating story - I had to refer to Wikipedia to try and make sense of it all. I would like to read his "Holy Tablets" but the pdf file costs $25 and I wasn't sure it would be value for money. THE HOLY TABLETS This Holy Tablets is Divinely Inspired. This Tablet is a Holy As Your Holy Bible and Koran and It is to be Treated in the Same Way. This is a Revelation for you from the Most High to set Straight the Records to Remove the Falsehoods. The Koran Has not Changed the World, Nor Has the Torah or the New Testament. They have Done Nothing for us the Nubians but were Used to Enslave Us, So the Most High and His Heavenly Hosts Have Decided that It Was Time to Renew the Nubian History. It is Time for the Nubians to Have their Own Scripture for their Spiritual Upliftment and Guidance. This Is Your Scripture Treat It As Such: Do Not Eat Over It or Do Anything that Might Hinder Your Search for Overstanding While Reading. Do Not Read the Holy Tablets while Angry, for the Information that is Within the Confines of its Pages are Given to You in Order to Break this Evil Hypnotic Spell of Spiritual Ignorance and Racial Blindness!!! We Suggest You: Read the Holy Tablets Everyday for Your Daily Guidance. Read It As A Family.

Posted by JimC on 24 Mar 2014 at 3:12PM

The word "overstand" is interesting.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An innocent bystander on 24 Mar 2014 at 3:18PM

That is a strange inversion...should have been "Understand" Hmmm....I'll ponder it

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by A Pantheist on 24 Mar 2014 at 3:30PM

overstanding is a Rastafarian word “Overstanding” is a play on words like many other words in the Rastafari Language. These play on words originated as a symbol of separation from the Western ideology and as well as a continual (I-tinual) remembrance of the struggle for emancipation. It is overstood that when one communicates, they are communicating an idea to another individual. Ideas are created by men thus the idea cannot be superior to its creator; similarly to the concept (I-cept) held by the Islamic ideology that man cannot be God because God created man. The Rastafari philosophy asserts that every man woman and child are equal (hence the term InI) therefore the individual who is receiving the information is equal to the communicator of the information and superior to the idea being communicated. That being said, one should not “understand” or stand under an idea; when they absorb and correctly perceive an idea they “Overstand” it. If any one else has any more questions pertaining to the Livity of Rastafari just drop me a line. http://rastareason.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/why-do-rastas-say-overstand-2/

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An innocent bystander on 24 Mar 2014 at 3:34PM

Ok. I overstand. But..I do not under/overstand why an idea cannot be greater than the one who constructs it

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by A Pantheist on 24 Mar 2014 at 7:15PM

if it is, you can only understand it. To overstand it you must be greater than the idea. I presume we cannot therefore not overstand God, Jah or Haile Selassie. Most adherents see Haile Selassie I as Jah or Jah Rastafari, an incarnation of God the Father, the Second Advent of Christ the Anointed One, i.e. the Second Coming of Jesus Christ the King to Earth. Rastafari are monotheists, worshiping a singular God whom they call Jah. Rastas view Jah in the form of the Holy Trinity – Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Rastas say that Jah in the form of the Holy Spirit (incarnate) lives within the human. For this reason, they often refer to themselves as "I and I". "I and I" is used instead of "We" to emphasize the equality between all people, in the belief that the Holy Spirit within all people makes them essentially one and the same. Quite an interesting religion actually, Haile Selassie is a direct descendant of Solomon, so is more of the "House of David" than Jesus is

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An Innocent Bystander on 24 Mar 2014 at 8:57PM

But why the capital letters where they shouldn't be? Words like:- Changed, Done, Nothing, Enslave, Us, Have, Decided, It, Was, Time, Have, Own, Uplifting, Guidance, Treat, It, As, Such, Not, Eat, Do, Anything, Might, Hinder, Your, Search, Overstanding, While, Reading, Not, Read, Angry, Information,, Within, Confines, Pages, Given, You, Order, Break, Evil, Hypnotic, Spell, Spiritual, Ignorance, Racial Blindness (and why 3 !!!) Suggest, You, Tablets, Everyday, Your, Daily, Guidance, It, As, A, Family.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by A Pantheist on 24 Mar 2014 at 9:40PM

perhaps it's divine intervention?

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An atheist on 25 Mar 2014 at 9:17PM

the Information that is Within the Confines of its Pages are Given to You in Order to Break this Evil Hypnotic Spell of Spiritual Ignorance and Racial Blindness!!!

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 25 Mar 2014 at 9:51PM

This is a lot less strange than the nuwaubian religion An atheist found, maybe it's not strange at all. I was discussing "new age" religious ideas with a reflexologist, who told me "evolution is conscious" which led me to a Tantra website, which led me to this book... http://www.amazon.com/The-Purposeful-Universe-Cosmology-Evolution/dp/1591431042 From the Back Cover Calleman’s research demonstrates that life did not just accidentally “pop up” on our planet, but that Earth was a place specifically tagged for this. He demonstrates how the Mayan calendar describes different quantum states of the Tree of Life and presents a new explanation for the origin and evolution of consciousness. Calleman uses his scientific background in biology and cosmology to show that the idea of the Purposeful Universe is real. He explains not only how DNA but also entire organisms have emerged in the image of the Tree of Life, a theory that has wide-ranging consequences not only for medicine but also for the origin of sacred geometry and the human soul. With this new theory of biological evolution the divide between science and religion disappears. #Fascinating

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by A Pantheist on 25 Mar 2014 at 10:00PM

sounds rather pantheistic to me J

i.e. the universe created itself to a "blueprint", without the need of a controlling creator deity

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 25 Mar 2014 at 10:01PM

Yes that's what I was thinking. Not sure about the Mayan connection though

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by A Pantheist on 25 Mar 2014 at 10:31PM

me neither, don't know too much about them. Some theories state they were aliens. Certainly the ancient cultures were quite advantage in terms of astronomy and maths. Was watching something the other day (through the wormhole maybe) saying the trigger that started life on earth from the "primordial soup" may have arrived for elsewhere on a meteor of asteroid.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 25 Mar 2014 at 10:55PM

Panspermia. It's feasible.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 26 Mar 2014 at 9:23AM

It's interesting how the Tree of Life is common to so many schools of thought.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by A Pantheist on 26 Mar 2014 at 11:41AM

Christianity seems to have an odd slant on it though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life#Christianity Islam seems to have a more reasonable account of "original sin" too, the tree of knowledge wouldn't work in Islam, as seeking knowledge is what a Muslim is meant to do. Islam The Tree of Immortality (Arabic: شجرة الخلود) is the tree of life motif as it appears in the Quran. It is also alluded to in hadiths and tafsir. Unlike the biblical account, the Quran mentions only one tree in Eden, also called the tree of immortality, which Allah specifically forbade to Adam and Eve. Satan, disguised as a serpent, repeatedly told Adam to eat from the tree, and eventually both Adam and Eve did so, thus disobeying Allah.[13] The hadiths also speak about other trees in heaven. Odd how Newton used the idea of an apple falling from a tree to explain gravity too

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 26 Mar 2014 at 12:57PM

Newton's religious views are a topic on their own. I think he was a deist. He certainly spent a lot of time and effort dissecting the Bible and concluded the Trinity concept was not in the original Greek texts and was a late addition into Latin translations.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An Evangelical Christian on 26 Mar 2014 at 4:57PM

Tree of Life--According to A Pantheist: "Christianity seems to have an odd slant on it though." "Islam seems to have a more reasonable account of "original sin" too, the tree of knowledge wouldn't work in Islam, as seeking knowledge is what a Muslim is meant to do." These are quotes from A Pantheist" post of March 26. Ironic that just this morning I saw a report that Islamics--knowledge seeking Muslims according to A Pantheist maybe--had attacked a Christian church and killed people within. A Pantheist has the audacity to say Christians have an odd slant of Biblical principles. Oh yeah, "Islam" is always more reasonable just "seeking what a Muslim is meant to do!" A Pantheist stretches audacity to the limit. If A Pantheist has a right to say such things in public, then I trust I have a right to say such ideas are despicable and idiotic.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by A Pantheist on 26 Mar 2014 at 5:47PM

You seem to be confusing two separate statements that I made by joining them together. Did you read the link? In addition to the Hebrew Bible verses, the tree of life is symbolically described in the Book of Revelation as having curing properties: "the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations." (Revelation 22:1-2) In Catholic Christianity, the Tree of Life represents the immaculate state of humanity free from corruption and Original Sin before the Fall. Pope Benedict XVI has said that "the Cross is the true tree of life." Saint Bonaventure taught that the medicinal fruit of the Tree of Life is Christ himself. Saint Albert the Great taught that the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ, is the Fruit of the Tree of Life. In Eastern Christianity the tree of life is the love of God. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life#Christianity IMHO I fail to see how a tree can be equated to God's love or how Jesus can be equated to a fruit, that's what I find to be an "odd slant". Where do you find the audacity in that? I'm not sure what is Ironic about religious extremists attacking a place of worship either, or as Jim stated what relevance it has to this thread or seeking knowledge? It simply shows your ignorance to religious extremism and indoctrination. Before posting such comments again I suggest you read the Discussion Board Rules 1. Be polite to others Follow the golden rule. Feel free to speak your opinion, but only when you can do so in a way that is respectful to other people. If you've got a disagreement with another player, don't bring it to the discussion boards. This rule is intended to keep flame-wars off the boards and to keep our conversations civilized. Posts showing others in a negative light, even if the player's identity is not revealed, are strictly prohibited. This includes posting game numbers or specifically mentioning enough information where a player's identity can be discovered. Remember, debating issues are encouraged but crossing the line into personal attacks and hate speech will not be tolerated.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An Evangelical Christian on 26 Mar 2014 at 7:09PM

Thanks for citing the discussion board rules. If you make no more unfounded, opinionated comments about my religion, I will forgive you.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by A Pantheist on 26 Mar 2014 at 8:12PM

I think it's me who ought to have an apology

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 26 Mar 2014 at 5:09PM

An Evangelical Christian said: Ironic that just this morning I saw a report that Islamics--knowledge seeking Muslims according A Pantheist maybe--had attacked a Christian church and killed people within  I don't think it's ironic, but last week I was reading about Christian militias killing Muslims. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/central-african-republic-christian-militias-revenge However, I don't really see how the actions of extremists is relevant to a theological discussion. And I don't see how personal accusations against people who post here helps to develop any argument. It seems to strangle the discussion and avoid the topic, in my opinion.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An Evangelical Christian on 26 Mar 2014 at 5:24PM

When someone attacks someone else's religious beliefs without offering any suggestion as to why they reached their stated opinion, then that person should expect some reply--in kind. I never read your links, but I note that even the "guardian" uses the idea that Christians acted in "revenge". "Revenge" clearly indicates that something was first done to them. I'm glad to see "self defense"; it is often necessary.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 26 Mar 2014 at 5:28PM

And Muslim extremists use the same argument. Now... Back to topic, please.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An Evangelical Christian on 26 Mar 2014 at 7:05PM

If you are saying Muslim extremists are stupid to claim self-defense when they attack a Christian church, where people are unarmed, then I agree with you.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by A Unitarian on 26 Mar 2014 at 7:25PM

"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." -Gandhi

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 26 Mar 2014 at 7:34PM

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An Evangelical Christian on 26 Mar 2014 at 8:18PM

Good. If anyone smites me I'll turn the other check...and then shoot him. Okay, I hope some humor was found in the above sentence by most of the readers. (oh, I know some will not think it funny at all. Today, however, I'm not in the mood to care.) I do not think of any verses that keeps us from acting in self-defense. Now, of course, the self-defense only becomes reasonable when we are faced with someone intending our death or great bodily harm. To prevent death or great bodily harm, my self-defense must be the reasonable and appropriate use of force under the circumstances. P.S.: I have never shot anyone who smited me.... He was running away too fast and I was afraid I'd hit his dog.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 26 Mar 2014 at 8:31PM

An Evangelical Christian said: "Revenge" clearly indicates that something was first done to them. I'm glad to see "self defense"; it is often necessary." Not sure what that means. Is "self-defense" the same as revenge? Or is revenge a form of "self-defense"? I thought they had very different meanings. I’m Puzzled

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by A Pantheist on 26 Mar 2014 at 9:37PM

Is "self-defense" the same as revenge? Or is revenge a form of "self-defense"? I thought they had very different meanings.

IMHO revenge is pre-meditated and self-defence is impromptu, but then what would I know?

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 26 Mar 2014 at 9:43PM

Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An Evangelical Christian on 26 Mar 2014 at 11:54PM

Well, my Bible quoting British athiest, I should learn from your quotations, but...I confess, my British hero is Churchhill, not Chanberlin whose weakness encouraged a crazy Hitler to take half of Europe (Oh, restrain yourself and don't post three times to tell me I have mispelled your historical leaders' names). There is an element of self-defense involved in going to war--though not totally a one on one situation.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 27 Mar 2014 at 1:55PM

Your misspellings are not what prevents me following your logic. I don't know why you've dropped all references to the word "revenge". Are you saying revenge and self defence are the same thing? I don't know where your knowledge of European history is coming from, especially your misrepresentation of Neville Chamberlain. During the 1930s Chamberlain was branded as a "crazed warmonger" because of his insistence that Britain should arm itself to the same level as Germany even though this massive military spending was at the expense of social spending and crippling the UK economy. Your analogy with Chamberlain, your reference to his "weakness" and your assertion that this "encouraged Hitler" is also confusing. Did Jesus's "weakness" encourage the Romans to execute Paul, persecute Christians, capture Jerusalem, and so on? Or did Jesus make it clear that war could not be avoided... And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. 8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. As I said previously, you seem to be arguing that Christian terrorism is OK because it is revenge. But this is the same revenge logic that Muslim terrorists use. Or any terrorists for that matter.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An Evangelical Christian on 27 Mar 2014 at 4:33PM

I received my history from the place all knowledgable, fair minded, non-agenda ridden, studious people of this age receive their history. I did not live in that age, nor did you. It doesn't surprise me that extremist segments of society screamed for more welfare programs--but that does not reflect the overall truth of the history of that time. Chanberlain's infamous give-away treaty of which he was so proud hastened, if not propelled us into war. That is all I will say about "political" matters on this board. Did Jesus's "weakness" encourage the Romans to execute Paul, persecute Christians, capture Jerusalem, and so on? Were you kidding? You can't follow my logic? After reading your "question" I can well believe you have a problem in understanding mine or anyone's logic. I trust you do not actually believe the implications of your argumentative question. ...you seem to be arguing that Christian terrorism is OK because it is revenge--from your post. Revenge was a word used in the reference of the Guardian. However, one of the purposes of any government is to protect its own citizens from foreign invaders. I referred to self-defense as a personal life preserving necessity. There are differences in personal self-defense and government action, but there are also similarities. Oh sure, we could say, "but what if the defending country" wrongfully acted in various ways, etc, etc. But facts and circumstances can be such when true facts (not something merely claimed as an excuse) justify military action. Accepting for argument of this hypothetical that all sincere and urgent diplomacy has failed and the attacks continue or the threatening hordes are at the doors (national boundary) ready to strike, governments have to act; even a defensive premptive strike may be proper to prevent massive death and to eliminate the threat of annihilation. It isn't really revenge to form a militia on a local basis to prevent further unprevoked attacks upon unarmed men, women and children in church; it is more like common sense and a shame not to effectively prevent such attacks. If you want to call it revenge...well, call whatever you wish--just don't change the facts. Of course, if this unarmed group, many of whom were killed while in a Christian church, by Muslims--IF they had attacked the Muslims first then that is definitely different. However, there is no suggestion that this Christian group had been out killing peace-loving knowledge seeking Muslims.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 27 Mar 2014 at 4:46PM

I couldn't see an answer to the questions, so let's try again. Were you aware that Chamberlain was referred to as a "crazed warmonger" because he recognised the danger from Germany and entered into an arms race against them during the 1930s? You seem to consider appeasement is a sign of weakness. Does this mean that Jesus's "weakness" encouraged the Romans to execute Paul, persecute Christians, capture Jerusalem, and so on? Do you think appeasement is un-Christian, or is your reference to Chamberlain and Churchill not relevant to religion? Overall, it seems you are interpreting the Bible to suit your particular moral opinions on war, revenge and violence, which contradict the moral opinions of pacifist Christians, who interpret the Bible in a different way. #MoralRelativism

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An Evangelical Christian on 27 Mar 2014 at 5:54PM

I do get tired of the "you said" and "I said" type of what is apparently thought to be good discussion. You seem to attribute to me some silly thoughts. I have enough faults of my own, so no need for you to judge me by the way you think I am. Please do not attribute your way of thinking to me. If you have any sincerity about not knowing what I said, then just read it again.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 27 Mar 2014 at 6:19PM

I can read your words but that doesn't mean I can make sense of your sentences. One way to try and understand what you mean is to ask you questions or try and guess what you mean so you can tell me if I am understanding you or not. I am certainly not judging you. I don't understand your brusqueness. But in your hearts honour Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defence to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An Evangelical Christian on 27 Mar 2014 at 6:54PM

Oh, are you claiming I've disrespected you? No, I haven't--unless you think it is disrespectful for me to disagree and answer you. Why is it more disrespectful for me to say I don't understand your question than you claiming again and again that you don't understand my sentences? You want to ask me Biblical or Spiritual questions? I'd be delighted.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by JimC on 27 Mar 2014 at 7:01PM

If you can confirm whether your references to Churchill, Chamberlain, etc have any religious context then yes I do have questions. But otherwise, I do not.

Re: Strange religions?

Posted by An Evangelical Christian on 27 Mar 2014 at 7:12PM

I trust you remember, dear sir, that you asked about revenge and smiting of the cheek. I do believe my discussion was consistent with the topic: broadly speaking, self-defense as individuals and by nations is not contrary to Biblical principles. I did say I would not be discussing such secular World War II things more.

Taking a break

Posted by A Pantheist on 27 Mar 2014 at 5:36PM

following recent uncalled for personal abuse, I've decided to take a break from posting on this DB for a while, as anything I post seems to make me fair game for anyone whose beliefs differ from mine. I will continue to read the more interesting debates, but won't be participating for the time being. <Waving>

Re: taking a break

Posted by JimC on 27 Mar 2014 at 5:42PM

Shame

Re: taking a break

Posted by an atheist on 27 Mar 2014 at 6:07PM

You will come back refreshed and ready to engage.